Feature #1408
closed0.1.to_r not equal to (1/10)
Description
=begin
$ ruby e 'p 0.1.to_r'
(3602879701896397/36028797018963968)
whereas
$ ruby e 'p "0.1".to_r'
(1/10)
=end
Updated by phasis68 (Heesob Park) about 14 years ago
=begin
2009/4/27 Martin DeMello martindemello@gmail.com:
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Heesob Park redmine@rubylang.org wrote:
$ ruby e 'p 0.1.to_r'
(3602879701896397/36028797018963968)whereas
$ ruby e 'p "0.1".to_r'
(1/10)What, in theory, could be done about this? By the time to_r is
invoked, 0.1 is already a binary float, with the implicit rounding
off.
In theory, Float#to_r could be done through Float#to_s#to_r.
Regards,
Park Heesob
=end
Updated by shyouhei (Shyouhei Urabe) about 14 years ago
=begin
Heesob Park wrote:
2009/4/27 Martin DeMello martindemello@gmail.com:
On Sun, Apr 26, 2009 at 2:51 PM, Heesob Park redmine@rubylang.org wrote:
$ ruby e 'p 0.1.to_r'
(3602879701896397/36028797018963968)whereas
$ ruby e 'p "0.1".to_r'
(1/10)
What, in theory, could be done about this? By the time to_r is
invoked, 0.1 is already a binary float, with the implicit rounding
off.In theory, Float#to_r could be done through Float#to_s#to_r.
1. That loses data.
=end
Updated by rogerdpack (Roger Pack) about 14 years ago
=begin
1 that loses data.
Truehowever the (current) code for String#to_s attempts to determine whether the floating point number "is the equivalent default for the rounded value" (i.e. if it round trips).
Do you think that using a comparisong like this (similar to what Park suggested) would be good enough for deducing the true original value? (I've thought of proposing a similar thing for BigDecimal,
ex: BigDecimal(0.1) => #BigDecimal:2d8cec8,'0.1E0',4(8)
=r
=end
Updated by tadf (tadayoshi funaba) about 14 years ago
=begin
to_r should provide exact conversion.
I think ruby may provide "rationalize" on common lisp or scheme.
but not yet.
=end
Updated by nobu (Nobuyoshi Nakada) about 14 years ago
=begin
Hi,
At Fri, 1 May 2009 21:12:52 +0900,
Roger Pack wrote in [rubycore:23345]:
Truehowever the (current) code for String#to_s attempts to
determine whether the floating point number "is the
equivalent default for the rounded value" (i.e. if it round
trips).
What about this?
Index: rational.c
 rational.c (revision 23433)
+++ rational.c (working copy)
@@ 1286,4 +1286,5 @@ integer_to_r(VALUE self)
}
+#if 0
static void
float_decode_internal(VALUE self, VALUE *rf, VALUE *rn)
@@ 1299,5 +1300,4 @@ float_decode_internal(VALUE self, VALUE
}
#if 0
static VALUE
float_decode(VALUE self)
@@ 1310,11 +1310,82 @@ float_decode(VALUE self)
#endif
+#if FLT_RADIX == 2 && SIZEOF_BDIGITS * 2 * CHAR_BIT > DBL_MANT_DIG
+# ifdef HAVE_LONG_LONG
+# define BDIGITDBL2NUM(x) ULL2NUM(x)
+# else
+# define BDIGITDBL2NUM(x) ULONG2NUM(x)
+# endif
+#else
+# define NEEDS_FDIV
+static ID id_fdiv;
+fun2(fdiv)
+#endif
+
+static VALUE
+float_r_round(double a, double f, int n)
+{
 int i, r;
+#ifdef BDIGITDBL2NUM  BDIGIT_DBL fn = (BDIGIT_DBL)fabs(f);
 BDIGIT_DBL d1 = (BDIGIT_DBL)1 << n, d2 = d1;
 BDIGIT_DBL rv = d1 % fn;
 VALUE b, d;
 if (rv < 10) {
 for (i = 1, r = (int)rv; i <= r; ++i) {

if ((double)fn / d2 != a) break;

if (fn % (d1 = d2) == 0) break;
 }
 }
 else if ((rv = fn  rv) && rv < 10) {
 for (i = 1, r = (int)rv; i <= r; ++i) {

if ((double)fn / ++d2 != a) break;

if (fn % (d1 = d2) == 0) break;
 }
 }
 b = BDIGITDBL2NUM(fn);
 d = BDIGITDBL2NUM(d1);
 if (f < 0) b = f_negate(b);
+#else  VALUE d2, fn, rv;
 VALUE b = rb_dbl2big(f);
 VALUE d = rb_big_pow(rb_uint2big(FLT_RADIX), INT2FIX(n));
 if (FIXNUM_P(d)) {
 d = rb_uint2big(FIX2LONG(d));
 }
 d2 = d;
 fn = f_abs(b);
 rv = rb_big_modulo(d, fn);
 if (FIXNUM_P(rv) && (r = FIX2LONG(rv)) < 10) {
 for (i = 1; i <= r; ++i) {

d2 = f_sub(d2, INT2FIX(1));

if (RFLOAT_VALUE(f_fdiv(fn, d2)) != a) break;

if (f_mod(fn, d = d2) == INT2FIX(0)) break;
 }
 }
 else if (FIXNUM_P(rv = f_sub(fn, rv)) && (r = FIX2LONG(rv)) < 10) {
 for (i = 1; i <= r; ++i) {

d2 = f_add(d2, INT2FIX(1));

if (RFLOAT_VALUE(f_fdiv(fn, d2)) != a) break;

if (f_mod(fn, d = d2) == INT2FIX(0)) break;
 }
 }
+#endif  return rb_rational_new(b, d);
+}
static VALUE
float_to_r(VALUE self)
{
 VALUE f, n;
 double a, f;
 int n;
 float_decode_internal(self, &f, &n);
 return f_mul(f, f_expt(INT2FIX(FLT_RADIX), n));
 a = RFLOAT_VALUE(self);
 f = frexp(a, &n);
 f = ldexp(f, DBL_MANT_DIG);
 n = DBL_MANT_DIG;
 if (n <= DBL_MANT_DIG && f != 0) {
 return float_r_round(a, f, n);
 }
 return f_mul(rb_dbl2big(f), f_expt(INT2FIX(FLT_RADIX), INT2FIX(n)));
}
@@ 1569,4 +1640,7 @@ Init_Rational(void)
id_to_s = rb_intern("to_s");
id_truncate = rb_intern("truncate");
+#ifdef NEEDS_FDIV

id_fdiv = rb_intern("fdiv");
+#endifml = (long)(log(DBL_MAX) / log(2.0)  1);

Nobu Nakada
=end
Updated by matz (Yukihiro Matsumoto) about 14 years ago
=begin
Hi,
In message "Re: [rubycore:23465] Re: [Feature #1408] 0.1.to_r not equal to (1/10)"
on Sat, 16 May 2009 06:23:53 +0900, Nobuyoshi Nakada nobu@rubylang.org writes:
What about this?
Could you explain how this patch differs from the original?
matz.
=end
Updated by nobu (Nobuyoshi Nakada) about 14 years ago
=begin
Hi,
At Mon, 18 May 2009 11:15:16 +0900,
Yukihiro Matsumoto wrote in [rubycore:23487]:
Could you explain how this patch differs from the original?
Searches more reduceable numerator which can round trip. Since
it just tries the numerator only in very restricted condtion,
better result may be achieved by trying also the denominator,
in other cases. In fact, the patch works for very simple
cases, e.g. 0.1 and (1.0/3.0), but doesn't for 0.24.

Nobu Nakada
=end
Updated by yugui (Yuki Sonoda) almost 14 years ago
 Target version changed from 1.9.1 to 1.9.2
=begin
=end
Updated by marcandre (MarcAndre Lafortune) over 13 years ago
 Category set to core
 Assignee set to matz (Yukihiro Matsumoto)
=begin
=end
Updated by marcandre (MarcAndre Lafortune) over 13 years ago
=begin
Sorry to be late to the party on this one.
It is important to remember that a Float is always an approximation.
1.0 has to be understood as 1.0 +/ EPSILON, where the EPSILON is platform dependent. 1.0 is not more equal to 1 than to 1 + EPSILON/2. Indeed, there is no way to distinguish either when they are stored as floats.
To believe that Float#to_s loses data is wrong. If r.to_s returns "1.2", it implies that 1.2 is one of the values in the range of possible values for that floating number. It could have been 1.2000...0006. Or something else. There is no way to know, so #to_s chooses, wisely, to return the simplest value in the range.
There are many rationals that would be encoded as floats the same way. There is no magic way to know that the "exact" value was exactly 12/10 or 5404319552844595/4503599627370496, or anything in between. All have the same representation as a float. There is no reason to believe that the missing (binary) decimals that couldn't be written in space allowed where all 0. Actually, there is reason to believe that they were probably non zero, because fractions that can not be expressed with a finite number of terms in their expansion in a given base all have a recurring expansion. I.e. if the significand does not end with a whole bunch of zeros (rational has finite expansion) then it probably ends with an infinite pattern (say 011011011 in binary, or 333333 in decimal).
For any given float, there is one and only one rational with the smallest denominator that falls in the range of its possible values. It is currently given by Number#rationalize, and I really do not understand why #to_r would return anything else.
I cannot see any purpose to any other fraction. Moreover, the current algorithm, which returns the middle of the range of possibilities, is platform dependent since the range of possibilities is platform dependent. That makes it even less helpful.
Is there an example where one would want 0.1.to_r to be 3602879701896397/36028797018963968 ?
Do we really think that 0.1.to_r to be 3602879701896397/36028797018963968 corresponds to the principle of least surprise?
Note that I'm writing that fraction but with a different native double encoding, the fraction would be different.
=end
Updated by znz (Kazuhiro NISHIYAMA) about 13 years ago
 Status changed from Open to Assigned
 Target version changed from 1.9.2 to 2.0.0
=begin
=end
Updated by marcandre (MarcAndre Lafortune) about 13 years ago
=begin
Why isn't Float#to_r simply calling Float#rationalize ?
=end
Updated by mwaechter (Matthias Wächter) about 13 years ago
=begin
Am 20.09.2009 06:17, schrieb MarcAndre Lafortune:
Sorry to be late to the party on this one.
I’m late as well ;)
It is important to remember that a Float is always an approximation.
No. It is an approximation only for:
• conversion from most decimal numbers, especially floats, and
• calculations that drop digits.
You can do exact math in a limited range of operations, and the question
should be whether the approximation approach should overrule this exact
math range of use, especially considering that conversion back to
decimal could be done precisely, however, sometimes requiring a bunch
of digits.
1.0 has to be understood as 1.0 +/ EPSILON, where the EPSILON is platform
dependent. 1.0 is not more equal to 1 than to 1 + EPSILON/2. Indeed, there
is no way to distinguish either when they are stored as floats.
If what’s stored in the Float is your precise result, you certainly
would not ask for precision reduction just because it could have been
the result of an imprecise calculation.
To believe that Float#to_s loses data is wrong.
I think there should be both a Float#to_s and Float#to_nearest_s. The
first would be precise, the second would output the “shortest” decimal
representation within ±EPSILON/2.
If r.to_s returns "1.2", it implies that 1.2 is one of the values in the
range of possible values for that floating number. It could have been
1.2000...0006. Or something else. There is no way to know, so #to_s chooses,
wisely, to return the simplest value in the range.
This is based on the assumption that noone would ever care about
Float’s precision.
There are many rationals that would be encoded as floats the same way. There
is no magic way to know that the "exact" value was exactly 12/10 or
5404319552844595/4503599627370496, or anything in between. All have the same
representation as a float. There is no reason to believe that the missing
(binary) decimals that couldn't be written in space allowed where all 0.
Actually, there is reason to believe that they were probably non zero,
because fractions that can not be expressed with a finite number of terms in
their expansion in a given base all have a recurring expansion. I.e. if the
significand does not end with a whole bunch of zeros (rational has finite
expansion) then it probably ends with an infinite pattern (say 011011011 in
binary, or 333333 in decimal).For any given float, there is one and only one rational with the smallest
denominator that falls in the range of its possible values. It is currently
given by Number#rationalize, and I really do not understand why #to_r would
return anything else.I cannot see any purpose to any other fraction. Moreover, the current algorithm,
which returns the middle of the range of possibilities, is platform dependent
since the range of possibilities is platform dependent. That makes it even less
helpful.
Is there an example where one would want 0.1.to_r to be
3602879701896397/36028797018963968 ?
If the binary/Float’s representation of
3602879701896397/36028797018963968 is the real result of the
calculation? How do you know?
Do we really think that 0.1.to_r to be 3602879701896397/36028797018963968
corresponds to the principle of least surprise?
False assumption here. Using floats for exact decimal math already
violates POLS. Don’t blame the messenger, i.e. the converter back to
decimal, the only part of the game that could always be precise.
Note that I'm writing that fraction but with a different native double
encoding, the fraction would be different.
Sure. Great to have different levels of precision/imprecision from the
computers.
And portability is not always the issue, otherwise there would have
never been different native floating point precisions.
– Matthias
=end
Updated by mwaechter (Matthias Wächter) about 13 years ago
=begin
Hello MarcAndre,
On 19.04.2010 00:14, MarcAndre Lafortune wrote:
I hope my dissent will not sound too harsh.
Not at all.
Arguing that 0.1.to_r should be 3602879701896397/36028797018963968 is
the same as arguing that 0.1.to_s should outputs these 55 decimals.
Right, that’s my point. 0.1 as a Float has a precise meaning in binary as in decimal, so Float#to_s should keep those 55 decimals. That’s why I said
that Float#to_nearest_s – choose a better name or an option to Fload#to_s – should be created that does »what everyone expects« to_s to do.
The same applies to Float#to_r. It should be as precise as possible, which it is currently. The function that does »what everyone expects« should be
Float#to_nearest_r in the same way as for the string representation.
For these reasons, the set S is of little interest to anybody.
The problem is that most people think that Floating point arithmetic is precise, which it is only for the the cases I described in my last mail.
What is interesting is the set of real numbers. Floating numbers are
used to represent them approximately. To add to my voice, here are a
couple of excerpts from the first links that come up on google
(highlight mine):"In computing, floating point describes a system for representing
numbers that would be too large or too small to be represented as
integers. Numbers are in general represented approximately to a
fixed number of significant digits and scaled using an exponent."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floating_point"Squeezing infinitely many real numbers into a finite number of bits
requires an approximate representation.... Therefore the result of a
floatingpoint calculation must often be rounded in order to fit back
into its finite representation. This rounding error is the
characteristic feature of floatingpoint computation." source:
http://docs.sun.com/source/8063568/ncg_goldberg.html
That’s where the problem starts. Everyone thinks he can do exact math on a computer, and the only problem was the approximation of the binary
representation of a real number, characterized by ±EPSILON/2. No, the real issue is the approximation of calculations which not only accumulates
EPSILON with each calculation, but it can shift EPSILON to any order. Think of something trivial like (1E40+0.10.1) returning 0.0 vs.
(1E40+0.30.20.1) returning 2.7E17. There is no real math in floats.
One can go as far as saying that availability of mathlike operators and mathlike precedence in a programming language supports the expectations of
realnumberlike behavior and precision. But this is slightly offtopic, and in fact method calls for simple math are not doing any good to
readability. Mathlike operator precedence is different and something completely unnecessary in a programming language, IMHO.
Note that typing 0.1 in Ruby is a "calculation" which consists in
finding the member of S closest to 1/10.Your final question was: how do I know that the value someone is
talking about is 0.1 and not
0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 (or
equivalently 3602879701896397/36028797018963968) ?I call it common sense.
It looks so obvious when we are talking about 0.1. If we talk about any other number with 80 digits, my point may become clearer.
What do you do if it’s not 0.1 a.k.a. 0.1000000000000000055511151231257827021181583404541015625 but
0.09999999999999997779553950749686919152736663818359375 (the result of (0.30.2)? What’s the difference for your argument? Now we will not get back
the expected nearest 0.1 anyway without applying the actually required/expected rounding constraints.
If it’s just about 0.1.to_r, i.e. converting from a decimal constant number to rational, use String#to_r.
Bottom line: Floats are not exact in terms of math, but they are exact in terms of computerlevel implementation, implementing IEEE 754. We should
respect the latter and help people deal with the former.
– Matthias
=end
Updated by tadf (tadayoshi funaba) about 13 years ago
=begin
Why isn't Float#to_r simply calling Float#rationalize ?
a = 0.5337486539516013
b = 0.5337486539516012
a == b #=> false
a.to_r == a #=> true
a.rationalize == a #=> false
a.to_r == b #=> false
a.rationalize == b #=> true
actually, flonum is restricted rational number.
however, rationalize bends the value.
to_r is the simplest and the cheapest way, rationalize is not so.
moreover, various languages support exact conversion (e.g. CL, Scheme, Haskell, Squeak, Python).
=end
Updated by mrkn (Kenta Murata) about 13 years ago
=begin
Float#rationalize is added again at r27503.
Please check that revision.
On 2010/05/06, at 7:23, MarcAndre Lafortune wrote:
Maybe a kind Japanese reader can provide the gist of [rubydev:41061]
to explain why was Float#rationalize removed?I would also appreciate opinions as to why it wouldn't be a net
improvement if to_r used the rationalize algorithm and some other
methods were provided for anyone wanting the value of the
representation (e.g. Float#representation which would return [sign,
mantissa, significand] and/or Float#representation_to_r would give the
rational corresponding to the internal representation of that float)

Kenta Murata
OpenPGP FP = FA26 35D7 4F98 3498 0810 E0D5 F213 966F E9EB 0BCC
Email: mrkn@mrkn.jp
twitter: http://twitter.com/mrkn/
blog: http://d.hatena.ne.jp/mrkn/
=end
Updated by mrkn (Kenta Murata) almost 12 years ago
 Status changed from Assigned to Closed
I close this ticket because the topic was too diverged.
Would you please make new tickets for the new version of ruby if anyone has objections.